Why I Witnessed To Westboro “Baptist”

Posted by Josh Buice on Jun 11, 2008 in Evangelism, Gospel, SBC |

As I walked across the sky walk over the street to the Convention Center in Indianapolis for the Southern Baptist Convention on Tuesday morning, I could not help but notice the bright yellow and green signs on the street corner being held high above the heads of the Westboro ‘Baptist’ picketers. Immediately I felt a nudge of the Holy Spirit telling me to go out and witness to these people. The Westboro group has been in the news in recent days as they picket the funeral processions of dead soldiers.

After breakfast, we went into the Convention for the morning session. After the session, I walked with a fellow pastor out the doors of the Convention Center to get lunch. As I saw the group standing on the opposite corner of the street with their signs informing us that we are all going to Hell, I felt that familiar nudge once again. This time, I submitted to the nudge and headed across the street. Immediately after crossing the busy intersection, I started speaking to this radical group of people. I did not have a formal plan, but I knew that I was being led across the street to these people by the Spirit of God.

As I spoke to the gentleman who was standing on the American Flag while holding two different signs high above his head, I noticed that he had a little boy (most likely his son) who was also standing there beneath this man. The young boy was also holding a sign with a very judgmental message. So, there I was in front of the infamous radical Westboro hate group. The first thing I said was, “I serve a Savior who forgives.” He responded by saying that I serve a false god and that I (along with all of the SBC) am a liar. When I asked him why he accused me of being a liar, he informed me that “You preach a message of love when God really does not love everyone – he hates most people.”

As I stood beside the busy intersection adjacent to the Convention Center, I asked him, “How many people have you seen saved through your preaching?” He responded, “We have seen several people come and join our church.” I said, “Joining your church is different than salvation. Have you seen anyone repent of their sins and turn to God through Jesus Christ as a result of your hate messages?” He responded, “The Bible says that it will be like the days of Noah in the last days, and how many were saved through Noah’s preaching?” I responded, “So, you think that only you and your small group from Westboro will be saved?” I continued, “You don’t believe that God saves people during the last days? What you should consider is that Christ has sent us out to preach the true gospel that saves rather than a hate message. We are not to make ourselves judges over people, but we are to preach the gospel. The true gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. If we will do that, people will be saved. Paul also informed us that it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save them that believe. Therefore, God did not intend for us to be judges over others, He called us to take His gospel message to the world.”

The man simply disagreed and said, “Jude tells us to snatch ‘some’ from the fire.” He obviously misunderstood the passage in Jude to say that we are to snatch some out of the fire but leave others in the fire to perish. After talking to him about the true gospel for a period of 15 minutes, I ended by saying, “Sir, I just want you to know that I will be praying for you and this little boy. I am going to pray that God will spare this boy from your false message and teaching, but I will also pray that God will open your eyes to the truth.” With a smile on his face, he said, “Your prayers do not reach God. He does not hear you. You pray to a false god.” I responded, “I pray to the one true and living God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. When I get to my hotel room, I will pray for and ask God to change your heart and open your eyes to the truth of the true Gospel.”

As I walked away, a gentleman who was watching from the crowd followed me up the street. He looked at me and said, “Sir, I want to thank you for doing that. Most people are not willing to speak the truth to these people, but maybe God will use your message to speak to their heart.” He continued, “Sir, do you have children?” I know he must have thought I was being rude, but I was a bit emotional for a moment and I could not respond. So, I shook my head and continued to walk. I was overcome with emotion because of the harshness of their message and the small boy who is caught up in the midst of it all. After a couple of deep breaths, I responded, “Yes sir, I have two children. I have a little girl who is three and a little boy who is two and a half months.” After just a moment, we shook hands and parted ways. We both agreed to pray for Westboro that night.

Why did I witness to Westboro? Was it to stir up a crowd in order to be seen of men? Was it to cause trouble? Was it to debate and argue with confused people? Was it to be interviewed by the newspaper? No! The following reasons sum up why I witnessed to Westboro:

1. I felt the unmistakable nudge of the Spirit of God leading me to witness to these people.

2. I believe that God can save these people just as he saved me several years ago.

3. I saw the little boy holding the sign next to the street corner, so I felt a bit of urgency to tell him the truth.

4. These people are part of the world that we are called to evangelize (Matthew 28:18-20), and it would have been ultra hypocritical to sit in a Convention Center and talk about the Great Commission without fulfilling it less than 400 yards away.

5. We as Christians are to spread the “Good News” which is the Gospel – not a message of hate void of any Gospel. Since these people were not doing that, I felt responsible to share the truth on the street corner.

May God bless His Word! Although none of these people stopped and repented of their sin, they did hear the true Gospel. The gospel saves! I pray that Westboro ‘Baptist’ will repent and turn to Christ Jesus for salvation. May God turn them into a group who preaches the true Gospel rather than a message of hate and confusion.

For the glory of God!

Pastor Josh Buice

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

OFFICIAL: Westboro Baptist Church Interview – Part II

RESPONSE #1: Westboro’s Gospel Error

RESPONSE #2: Westboro’s Great Commission Error

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132 Responses to “Why I Witnessed To Westboro “Baptist””

Terry Delaney says:
June 11, 2008 at 10:08 pm

Thank you for this brother. I, too, will join in praying for Westboro tonight and on a more regular basis (other than when I see them on tv). Thank you for your willingness to step into the fiery furnace that is hatred.
Josh Buice says:
June 12, 2008 at 9:42 am

Terry,Thank you for praying for Westboro. We are often critical of people without praying for their soul! I am very guilty in this area. I pray that our God would spare them from His wrath to come.For His Glory!Josh Buice
Christine says:
June 12, 2008 at 10:28 am

Josh-Will your encounter with these obviously misled group of people change the way you deal with other people and their sin problem? Will you now be more compassionate in your confrontation of others and their wrong beliefs since you have now been on the other end of the spectrum?
Josh Buice says:
June 12, 2008 at 10:31 am

Christine,I am not sure what you are referring to in your question. I hope that I will remain consistent in how I share the love of Christ with others.Regarding false teachers and heresies, I do not expect that this encounter with Westboro will soften my heart to heresy. I will always remain steadfast in my desire to preach the true Gospel.Does that mean that I must do it in a hateful way? No! It simply means that I must be faithful to preaching the one true faith through the one true way – Jesus Christ alone!Josh Buice
julie says:
June 12, 2008 at 11:09 am

Josh, may the Lord see fit to use your words to open eyes and touch hearts with the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Here is a quote from another blog reviewing a book on the Holy Spirit’s work. It seems especially applicable here:” is helpful in clarifying the chief goal of the Holy Spirit as not creating a bunch of noise and disorder but rather as glorifying the Lord Jesus Christ (cf. John 16.14). Thus one might conclude that a church, and their pastor, are Spirit filled when they are Christ-centered and cross-boasting.”from http://www.irishcalvinist.com
Josh Buice says:
June 12, 2008 at 11:19 am

Julie,Thank you for the encouragement and the quote. Please join me in praying for the Westboro group.For His Glory!Josh Buice
Bill Blair says:
June 12, 2008 at 12:13 pm

That was a very moving story. I am thinking about how much easier it would have been for you to just go to lunch and talk about how misguided those people are rather than walk across the street and share the gospel.What you did is an example of how we should treat unbelievers. We are not to judge those outside the church (1 Cor 5:12-13), but we are called to preach the good news to them. Thanks for sharing the gospel and this story.
david says:
June 12, 2008 at 12:57 pm

Josh,I am surprised this group is able to continue to operate after losing a major lawsuit for protesting a soldiers funeral. I’m glad you witnessed to them and obeyed the Holy Spirit.I know very little about this group. If we serve a false God, then what would they say is the correct path to Salvation? Did they tell you?
Josh Buice says:
June 12, 2008 at 1:03 pm

David,They claim they serve the God of the Holy Scriptures, but their doctrine is very distorted. They believe in some hyper-Calvinist – no gospel – works based – salvation (if the young lady I talked to after the man in my story holds their official position).I will be able to more clearly answer this question in a post later this week or next week when I post an official interview between myself and Westboro Baptist Church.God Bless,Josh Buice
Joshua says:
June 12, 2008 at 1:38 pm

“it would have been ultra hypocritical to sit in a Convention Center and talk about the Great Commission without fulfilling it less than 400 yards away.”Would you consider yourself to have fulfilled the Great Commission by sharing the gospel, witnessing and talking with the Westboro “baptists” or would it have been better to say you were hearing about evangelism in the Convention Center and fulfilling our duty to evangelize?
diane says:
June 12, 2008 at 1:55 pm

WOW! Thank you so much for being obedient to the Holy Spirit and sharing the gospel with this man and his son. You responded to hate by loving him with the gospel. I confess I have complained about this group of people, I have gossiped about this group of people but I have never prayed for God to open up their eyes to the true gospel message. Thank you for what you did and thank you for putting feet to your faith. I am going to to pray for the Westboro people.because of the cross,diane
Josh Buice says:
June 12, 2008 at 2:33 pm

Joshua,The Great Commission is to share Christ with the world. It was not Westboro that fulfilled the Great Commission, but they are part of the puzzle piece of the world.As the SBC discusses the efforts of the Great Commission – it seems hypocritical for me to sit back and not share the gospel with people. Now, if you read the article, you will remember that I felt obligated by the Spirit of God to embrace these people with the gospel prior to entering the Convention Center that morning. So, as I sat and heard the discussions, I felt hypocritical when I hit the streets and started to walk by these people. It was not out of guilt that I shared Christ – but out of an overwhelming obligation that I sensed from my Lord.God Bless,Josh Buice
Josh Buice says:
June 12, 2008 at 2:36 pm

Diane,Thank you for praying for the Westboro group!Josh
Scott King Walker says:
June 12, 2008 at 3:57 pm

Josh, in one sentence, you called the Westboro folks “Hyper-Calvinist” and “works-based”. I know that making sense of heresy is sometimes impossible, but I cannot reconcile those two descriptions in any possible way.What were you trying to say?
Josh Buice says:
June 12, 2008 at 4:05 pm

Scott,Thank you for the question – my statement was most likely unclear since the conversation between myself and one of the Westboro members remains unpublished.First of all, they claim that God only loves His elect people, and He hates others. They cite Malachi 1 where the prophet claims that God loves Jacob but hates Esau. Therefore, their message of hate stems from that point of view – and they are committed to spreading the message that God does not love everyone.When I asked them how people are saved, they claimed that it was through Jesus. However, when I asked if they were preaching the Gospel, they said that they were. I insisted that people do not get saved through hate messages – they need the gospel. At that point they insisted that God does not need our help to save people.Furthermore, when I asked one specific young lady her definition of the gospel – she insisted that doing good and obeying the commands of God is what makes a person right with God. She seemed to not understand the Gospel at all!Therefore, if it is possible, their doctrine seemed to be a mixture of hyper-calvinism coupled with works based salvation! I am not sure this is possible at the core – but for some reason that is the message they provided me.It should be noted that I am in the process of interviewing the Westboro Baptist Church for a public interview to be released sometime within the next week. It may become more clear in their own official answers through the interview. I plan to post the interview on the DBG blog when it is completed.Thank you for your question.Josh Buice
Justin T says:
June 12, 2008 at 4:47 pm

Rev. BuiceThanks for your blog post, it has encouraged me greatly.I think the Westboro folks are not standing out there to evangelize or warn, they are there to share with their God’s anger towards homosexuals and the false church as they see it.Its easy to show hate and be pompous and even us as evangelicals are guilty of it sometimes.It doesn’t mean we have to turn all lovey-dovey, but work towards balancing our message of the coming judgment and God’s provision for those who choose to trust in His Son.
Truth Unites... and Divides says:
June 12, 2008 at 6:15 pm

Wow! Referred here by Challies blog.Rev. Josh, you done good.I’d be shaking too just like you did after that emotionally-charged encounter. God loves the Westboro folks just like he loves the unrepentant GLBT’ers. Jesus died on the Cross for all of us.God bless you and your family and your ministry.
Ben says:
June 12, 2008 at 10:46 pm

I am the one who you talked to. I generally don’t post on others’ blogs, but I’ll respond. The problem here is that you have lied about what happened. You didn’t “witness” to me – you simply wanted to argue about our doctrines. You didn’t tell me anything about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for the remission of sins, which apparently is your version of “witnessing”. Incidentally, everyone already knows about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for the remission of sins – you can’t go around and parrot that and claim that you’re doing the Lord’s work. Paul declared the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27), and your job is to rightly divide the scripture (2 Tim. 2:15). That is, preach what’s applicable. Like the verses in Jude that you refer to. They actually go like this: “And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.” Jude 22 and 23. I quoted you those verses about 10 times, and explained in detail what they mean (which makes me wonder why you would lie to your readers and say that I thought that it meant something other than what I told you it meant). To wit, you are supposed to make a distinction when you are dealing with different people. On some people, you’re supposed to have compassion. Others, you’re supposed to save by fear. When we see impenitent people running around, not having any interest in even acknowledging that they are sinning, that is the time to make sin exceeding sinful (Romans 7:13) and preach fear to them. That is the time to let them know how hateful and abominable they are before God’s eyes. That is their only hope. Furthermore, one of the times when you were busy telling me not to judge (I can’t remember if this was before or after you judged me and my six-year-old by telling us that we are going to hell – I guess that must have been some of that “good news” you were pouring on us), I informed you that the very next verse says: “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.” Matthew 7:6. You’ve got a commandment from the lips of Jesus that you have to JUDGE who the swine are, and not cast your pearls before them. I wonder what that means. Could it possibly mean that you shouldn’t be telling proud sinners that Jesus loves them and died for them? Why yes, I believe it does mean at least that. When you tell them that, you are neither “making a difference” nor following Christ’s commandment to not cast your pearls before swine. You are also wearying the Lord: “Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?” Malachi 2:17.I never informed you that “you preach a message of love.” I informed you that you preach a message that God loves everyone. Big difference. We preach about God’s love, but we do it accurately. We don’t blindly parrot to everyone that God loves them. We make a difference, like the Holy Spirit said to do. You can’t even understand the love of God unless you first understand His hatred. (Malachi 1:2, 3 – where God defines His love of Jacob by His hatred of Esau). You told me that I shouldn’t teach my boy about hatred. I tell you that I will continue to teach all of my children about the hatred of God. You even admitted that God does hate people. You admitted that Jesus is NOT a propitiation for every human, and has NOT redeemed every human (because, after all, there are a whole lot of people in hell). The question is, how can a person be saved if you are going to lie to them and hide those important doctrines from them? How can a person even properly and fully understand the death, burial and resurrection of Christ without knowing about those things? Your problem (and the problem with the rest of the SBC) is that you are too concerned with how many baptisms you have, and you have compromised the Word of God to up your numbers. And when you have a lying doctrine as one of your bedrock principles, you will have sin. You have a simple job – preach the whole counsel of God. How it lands on peoples’ hearts is God’s business, not yours. Asking the question of “how many have you saved” is Satan’s question, as if this is some kind of a popularity contest (incidentally, we don’t allow people to join our church UNLESS they have repented and have turned to Christ – when I told you that some people have joined our church, it is implicit that they have repented. The very fact that you would suggest that you can join the church of the Living God WITHOUT first repenting makes me wonder what kind of a church you’re running over there. OH wait, it’s the one where you let some impenitent sodomites become members, and then kicked them out when, surprise, surprise, they continued to commit sodomy).BTW, when you were so busy puffing yourself up about your Greek skills, you wouldn’t let me finish my answer about 2 Peter 2:1. You were saying that it means that Jesus died for them, yet they were damned and destroyed anyway. The verse refers back to the song of Moses – Deuteronomy 32. It has nothing to do with redemption by the blood of Christ (which, given your Greek skills, you should have known – compare this verse to Acts 20:28, 1 Cor. 6:20, 7:23, Eph. 1:7, 1 Peter 1:18,19, and Rev. 5:9). Also, compare this to the sister passage in Jude 4. It refers to the fact that you are alive and are sustained by the Almighty God. He has created you, upheld you, providentially taken care of you, etc. That is the sense in which He has bought you. And while you’re studying up on your Greek, you should have a nice discussion with anyone who you can get your hands on that the word translated “world” in John 3:16 (i.e., kosmos) NEVER means every individual of mankind. You know that the “world” often refers to Gentiles – i.e., Jesus didn’t just come to save Jews, He also came to save Gentiles. Your entire theology rests on a misinterpretation of a single verse – John 3:16. And you know it, because you know Greek. And you refuse to tell people. You are in a lot of trouble. A LOT of trouble. You should be a lot more concerned about the first part of 2 Peter 2:1.Anyway, there’s a lot more I could write, and I will probably be writing a lot more on our blogs page – blogs.sparenot.com. Have fun responding – I won’t be responding back, pursuant to Titus 3:10.
ashley b says:
June 12, 2008 at 10:52 pm

Josh,nicely done faithful servant. Your compassion for this man and his son was touching.Ashley
Kristian says:
June 12, 2008 at 11:35 pm

Ben, the “witness” that you and your church provides is one of mere arrogance and condemnation without pointing to the simple fact that God hates sin, regardless of the nature of that sin. It doesn’t matter whether it’s homosexuality, pride, whatever…until you and your fellow church members recognise the folly of your distortion of the Gospel, you present yourselves as much in need of a contrite and repentant heart as those whom you are condemning. I find it unsurprising that your blog has comments disabled – are you so confident of your correctness that you are oblivious to any sort of rebuke?Josh, praise God for your boldness and heart for respectfully trying to show this man the error of his and his church’s ways. Although we have no extreme groups like this in Australia, it still is troubling to think that somewhere in this world unrighteous anger is being shown with the claim of glorifying God.
Josh Buice says:
June 13, 2008 at 12:16 am

Ben,First of all, yes I did share the Gospel (death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin) – but you continued to call me a liar.Second, I never just came out and said you were going to hell, but I did say that if you think that your message of hate is the gospel – you have not understood the true Gospel, and that will be the result in the end for you and your son. I asked your son his name, but you interrupted me and told him not to speak to me because I am a “heathen” or “infidel” — one of the two.Furthermore, you could not define the Gospel even after I asked you several times . . . your message was consumed with hate – void of any truth regarding the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.After lunch, I invited you to have a meal with me that night where we could discuss this out of the spot light of the many witnesses. Remember, you smiled and said, “Even if I were going to be in this city tonight, I would never have a meal with you.” Ben, if I was wrong as you claim, wouldn’t Jesus have shared a meal with me in order to convert me? What is the difference between your motives and the motives of Jesus?Ben, I kept my promise that I made to you on the street corner that afternoon! I have prayed for you and your son on several occasions. I also believe that the God of all creation has heard my prayers.Ben, I pray that you will turn to the true and living God for salvation and then teach the truth to your children. Jesus saves!Romans 10:13Josh Buice
Johnnie says:
June 13, 2008 at 9:12 am

Westboro is a dying so-called church…They have been lied to by their own false preacher…It is sad to see people especially children being misled by a hate mongrel. It seems that Fred Phelps only hatred is homosexuals, which of course is an abomination unto the Lord…We are to love the things that God loves and hate the things that God hates…God hates “SIN”, not the sinner as Westboro would like people to believe…It is true that sin is sin, and that it does not matter the sin, it could be as small as stealing a piece of bubble gum or as big as murder, it is still sin, worthy of death…I believe picketing a soldiers funeral would be a sin, and if it isn’t, well then, it isn’t a very nice thing to do…The type of religion that Westboro is pushing to the public is exactly why so many people have a bad taste in their mouths for religion of all types…Fred Phelps & family are false preachers, false teachers, and if there are any prophets, they would also be false…Hate is such an ugly word, but that is what they preach…All that we can do as Christians is to pray for them and their families that the Lord would get a hold of them and teach them the real “Good News”, preached by the Apostles and the Lord Jesus Christ…May you have a blessed day…Humbly;Johnnie
David says:
June 13, 2008 at 4:09 pm

It is strange to me that the words of this church read so much like Muslim radicals. Extreme fundamentalism comes out the same no matter what its starting point. What is unique about Christianity is its ability to love. Take love out of the Gospel, and its just another world religion.
Terry Delaney says:
June 13, 2008 at 7:19 pm

Just for the record, my Internet filter will not allow me to visit the Westboro “church” homepage. It apparently falls into the category of hate.
Darlene (Mom) says:
June 13, 2008 at 7:20 pm

Josh,I am so proud of you and your boldness and willingness to follow the holy spirit no matter where it leads you. This man and his cult are being so misled by the teachings of their so called preacher. He is so full of hate and anger and we all need to pray for these people that they will open their eyes before it’s to late.Ben,My son is a True man of God, not a “heathen” or “infidel”. He is a very compassionate, spirted filled, spirit lead, educated, bold, honest, and loving preacher. He stands on the word of GOD and preaches straight out of the BIBLE. I pray that GOD will open your eyes to the truth.Thank you again Josh for all that you are and all that you stand for. We need more preachers in this world like you.God be with you,MOM
Josh Buice says:
June 13, 2008 at 9:02 pm

Mom,Thanks for the encouragement . . . but it is a bit biased – right? Thanks! I love you!Josh
Mae says:
June 13, 2008 at 11:00 pm

i think this group’s actions are atrocious and disgusting and there really is no defense for the things they do and say. however, i am wondering, josh, why did you share with us that you witnessed to this group? are they different than another group or lost person you pass on any given street?and what is this accusation of sodomites at your church that ben has thrown out? is this something you told ben or is this a lie or false accusation?josh’s mom-i think it is great that you so whole heartedly support your son. but i can imagine that ben’s parents say the exact same things about him. and i’m sure ben feels the same way about his son as you or i or josh feels about our own sons.i think bringing ben’s son into your witnessing/confrontation was wrong. if you had walked up to me in disagreement *no matter your intent or tone* and then addressed my child, i’d have asked you to kindly never do it again. ben may be indoctrinating his child in lies, but he probably thinks that you and i are doing the same thing, only in reverse.david–watch out talking about too much love!!!!!
Darlene (Mom) says:
June 13, 2008 at 11:49 pm

Mae,I support my son wholeheartedly because of his realtionship with the Lord. I would love him no matter what, but there is a certain respect that a mother has when her son stands on the word and walks closely with the Lord. I agree with Josh that it is our responsibility to bring the Lost to the Lord and being led by the Holy Spirit he had no other choice than to witness to these lost people. I would hope that Ben’s parents would tell him the same thing that Josh tried to tell him.Sin is Sin and if we as Christians don’t try and witness to the lost then what are we doing here? God loves the sinner, he just hates the sin.Darlene(Mom)
Darlene (Mom) says:
June 13, 2008 at 11:53 pm

Josh,I love you too, Very much. My opinion is not biased at all. You did what you were led to do by the holy spirit, not out of hate but out of love. I commend you and agree with you. Let’s just keep praying for these lost people. After going to there website it just shocked me to read what they are all about.Mom
David says:
June 14, 2008 at 1:54 am

Mae,thank you for your kindness.david
David says:
June 14, 2008 at 2:00 am

Josh,I am interested in the idea that you witnessed to them. I have been thinking about this all day. What do you do with someone who is right on the essentials, but way wrong on the heart? (I am not endorsing everything they believe.)I checked out their website and just noted the sermon topics. Wow. It is interesting that there is no exposition or any real attempt at Bible teaching — just rage. Week after week, rage. It’s like someone going through the Bible and just preaching the angry parts.WIth Mormons we start (I do) with the idea of ONE GOd. With J.W.’s we deal with the diety of Jesus. But angry Christians, what’s the starting point?
Johnnie says:
June 14, 2008 at 3:01 am

Mae;Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? And if you have, do you follow what the Holy Ghost tells you,(shows you)or do you follow your own will and your own way?We as Christian are to speak the gospel of Christ with boldness, not with a limp wrist…Why does this bother you? We are to reach out to the lost, we are to reach out to those who are speaking and teaching false doctrine, not to sit back and let them spread lies throughout the country and abroad…We can approach these people with true love in our hearts for their souls with boldness…I think you have boldness and hate mixed up…I also think that you are a compromiser…Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.Psa 119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.Humbly;Johnnie
David says:
June 14, 2008 at 3:58 am

Humbly;JohnnieI hate to have to tell you this Johnnie, but simply because you sign something “humbly” doesn’t mean you are being humble in your approach.Correctly, David
Josh Buice says:
June 14, 2008 at 8:59 am

David,First of all, I would be hesitant to call them angry “Christians.” If they are wrong on the gospel and if they are unwilling to share the true gospel . . . I am not sure they are saved.Therefore, I start with the true gospel. If they can understand the true gospel and then understand the true God . . . they can be changed – just like I was.Josh
Bill F. says:
June 14, 2008 at 1:25 pm

Thought this quote from Spurgeon is appropiate”If sinners will be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, at least let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go there unwarned and unprayed for.”
Christine says:
June 14, 2008 at 5:17 pm

Bill F.-Thank you so much for that quote from Mr. Spurgeon. I think it’s easy sometimes to say, “Oh well, they want to go to hell, so let them.” I am praying that that will never again be my attitude.Johnnie-The verses that you quoted talk about hating the false teaching, the false way, etc. The Bible never teaches us to put down others and call them names like you have done. I have called you a false teacher, because you blatantly misuse the Scripture to fit your doctrine. You have called Mae a compromiser simply because she implores us to do the most loving thing which is commanded over and over again in Scripture. Mae continually states that she believes that we should err on the side of love. What is wrong with that? When we get to heaven , will God tell us that we were too loving? I highly doubt it. Should we confront sin? Absolutely. Should we first make sure that our own lives are blameless before God? Absolutely. Should we consider the sinner’s place in life and past experiences when deciding when, how, etc. to confront their sin? We better. I’d hate for God to say to me that I turned a sinner away from him simply because of my approach. And don’t even try to tell me that it doesn’t happen. It does. I agree with David, you should make sure that you are indeed acting humbly when you sign your name that way.Josh-Do you think the best way to witness to someone to go about exegising Scripture and trying to show them the meaning of the text in Greek? Whatever happened to the Romans Road and John 3:16. I’m just curious at to why you chose this approach.
Josh Buice says:
June 14, 2008 at 5:53 pm

Christine,I actually used multiple verses in my approach to Ben. The only time we discussed Greek was in one specific text that I thought he was using out of context.Therefore, my approach was to present the true gospel to Ben. I am now praying that God will open his eyes to the truth of the true gospel.Josh
Christine says:
June 14, 2008 at 6:43 pm

Josh-I am praying for him, too. I am just trying to hone my own witnessing skills, so I was just wondering if you thought that was the best way. My statement wasn’t intended to be judgmental in any way.I applaud you for being brave enough to even talk with them, because I don’t think I would have been able to. I feel very sorry for the children who are being indoctrinated with their hatred.Do you find it strange that they have women pastors in their church? I found it very strange when you take into account their extreme conservative bent. I wonder how they justify that?
Bill F. says:
June 14, 2008 at 8:09 pm

Christine,May I suggest the book “Way of the Master”. It teaches how to use the law(10 commandments)to introduce a person properly to God’s mercy and grace. It was an eye opener for me.Bill
Josh Buice says:
June 14, 2008 at 8:21 pm

Christine,I understand! The best way for me to witness to people is to start with my personal testimony. After that, I either go to the law or I use a modified version of the Romans Road. It usually depends on the person I am speaking with.The book Bill recommended is great – I too would recommend it.Another book you may find useful is — How To Give Away Your Faith by Paul Little.God Bless,Josh
Johnnie says:
June 14, 2008 at 8:32 pm

Christine, David;So let me get this straight, As long as the bible is quoted the way that you say it should be, then it is okay…But if someone speaks out against what you claim to be or not to be then we are wrong, we are false preachers, false teachers, ect…Christine, you say that I misuse scriptures, tell me then, what have I misused…I speak the word of God as I have been given it and God’s word is not wrong, therefore I am not wrong…Oh, and, John 3:16 will not save you, it is just a beginning to true salvation, we must follow the whole gospel, the whole word of God…We cannot just pick and choose what we think is right…I preach the doctrine of Christ, you preach the doctrine of man, can man save you?David; your comfortable as long as you have the upper hand in the conversation, but I must say that you also follow man made doctrine…Being humble does not mean a man cannot speak the word of God with boldness, if that offends you, then you might not want to step out into the world, because the wicked don’t mind speaking boldly…We as Christians are to stand up for the gospel of Christ…Since I have been reading and commenting on this site, it seems when I speak the truth, I come under fire, I wonder, why is that? David, Christine, you talk about my approach, am I to approach people in the same manner as you, and are you suppose to approach people in the same manner as I do? I don’t believe so, why you might ask? Because we are humans, we all think differently, therefore, we do not act or talk or approach people with the same mannerism…Yes, Jesus Christ is about love, but I have also read where He is coming with a vengeance against all workers of iniquity…David, I have a question for you…Why do you always look to man for answers? Why do you not ask God?Humbly;Johnnie
Christine says:
June 14, 2008 at 9:48 pm

Johnnie-You have stated repeatedly that you must be baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit before you can be saved. That simply is not true. The thief on the cross was not baptized. Old Testament saints were not baptized. Baptism is simply an act of obedience to God, much like observing the Lord’s Supper.As for your question, of course man cannot save me and don’t expect him to. No man can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus only. Not Baptism. Not being filled with the Holy Spirit. Now before you go on a tangent about whether I am filled with the Spirit and do I listen to him or do I follow what I want to do(like you so eloquently inquired of Mae), I’ll put that baby to bed right now. I am absolutely, unequivocally filled with the Spirit of God. I hear him speak to me daily and you can bet your britches that I listen. For many years, I followed my own way, and all it got me was a one way ticket to a very dark place and wagon load of pain and misery. It has taken me years to get back to the place where I could even hear God and begin to follow him on a daily basis.You want to get on David’s case about liking to have the upper hand in the conversation, and maybe that’s true, I don’t know. But, I can tell that it really irks you to be questioned about your beliefs. The Bible tells us to always be ready to give an account of ourselves. It also tells us to speak the truth in love. Does it bother you to give an account of yourself? Can you honestly say that you speak the truth in love when you call other believers “compromisers” and accuse them of following the doctrine of man and waiting for that to save them? Can you honestly say that?I am praying that God will open your eyes and give you a new mind. The mind of Christ. The mind that Scripture commands us to have.Phl 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.(I quote from the KJV because that seems to be the version that you favor.)
David says:
June 15, 2008 at 12:07 am

Johnnie,Before you get too wound up, click on the “David” who said something to you. There’s another David posting who was not previously having a conversation with you. (ie: It wasn’t me, man)Not knowing who you are addressing this to: “David, I have a question for you…Why do you always look to man for answers? Why do you not ask God?”I would submit that we do not need to seek an “experience” when we already have a clear revelation. Looking to the Bible is looking to God. God has revealed himself as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He has revealed his will that all men be saved, Baptized and carry out his purposes.I am concerned any time we add something to the Gospel. Be it tongues, Baptism or circumcision — anyting is a work of the flesh.And, Johnney, I have no problem with you signing off Humbly. I appreciate open dialogue with you.david
David says:
June 15, 2008 at 12:10 am

I searched, but cannot find out.–Does anyone know how big the Westboro Baptist Church is? Is this a group of 15, or a growing movement of hundreds or thousands?
Johnnie says:
June 15, 2008 at 1:07 am

Christine;The thief on the Cross was under the law then, the Lord was not yet glorified…I might ask though, are you sure that he was not baptized? As I have said before, God can do anything He chooses to do, He is not beholden to our laws…Under the new dispensation it is a commandment to be baptized and to be filled with the Holy Ghost, well, at least that is what it says in my bible, (the KJV because it was the first to be translated into our language by King James..It is the closest to the original Hebrew & Greek writings)…Before I go any further, it does not bother me when someone calls me out, it excites me because I know that they are really interested in talking about God…Okay, you say that you are filled with God’s spirit, that is good…My question is, is how were you filled with His spirit, what took place when this happened, and then I will tell you my experience on how I was filled and how I walk in His spirit…I take God’s word as serious as a heart attack, because it is a matter of life and death, heaven and hell, there is no in between…2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.We are to rebuke and correct those who preach false doctrine…I have not always been a follower of Jesus Christ or believer..I once lived a very colorful life until the Lord found me and picked me up and turned me around and placed my feet upon solid ground…Only by His mercy and His grace;(Spiritual instruction, improvement and edification. Eph 4:29.To favor; to honor.Appropriately, the free unmerited love and favor of God, the spring and source of all the benefits men receive from Him.When a saint is willing to follow a so-called preacher and this preacher is spewing out false doctrine and he/she goes along with them knowing the truth, they are compromising themselves…And I will not retract that for you or anyone else….I say these things with love for your souls…As time goes on, God’s people will stand out among the sinners of this world, and there will be a lot of so-called Christians among the sinners…
David2 says:
June 15, 2008 at 1:21 am

Sorry (the other) David for causing that confusion – it was not intentional.Josh,I’m just wondering how you would respond to the suggestion that it is somewhat hypocritical of you to take offence at being told that you were going to hell and then proceeding to tell these Westboro individuals they were going to hell?I also wonder what your own stance on homosexuality is and whether it is much more subtle, yet every bit as damaging as that expressed by Westboro?And how would you respond to the suggestion that I believed that your eyes needed to be opened to the truth and that I would compassionately pray for you?
David S says:
June 15, 2008 at 1:51 am

Johnnie,By saying the thief on the cross was “under the law” thus he did not need to be baptized… it seems you are actually proposing that it was easier to go to heaven under the “law” than by the blood atonement of Jesus.Under the law, in your system, the theif only needed to confess Christ and call on God for mercy. But under the system we live in, you believe we must be Baptized. So weren’t we better off before in such a system?
Josh Buice says:
June 15, 2008 at 7:20 am

David,I think they are small, but again, that will come out in the interview later in the week.Josh
Josh Buice says:
June 15, 2008 at 7:27 am

David 2,First of all, I did not just walk up and tell them they were going to hell. I spoke with the man for a period of 15 minutes about the gospel, the Great Commission, and other aspects of the Christian faith. After I believed that he did not fully understand the gospel, I told him that if he did not believe the true gospel he would go to hell. My statement was based on his understanding of the gospel – not just a blanket statement like this man was holding up on the street corner.Regarding homosexuality, I believe it is a sin against God and that those involved need to repent. However, in order to reach homosexuals, I believe that we must teach them the true gospel and the true plan of God for His creation . I do not believe any homosexual will be saved by holding up signs that say, “God hates fags . . “If you informed me that my eyes needed to be opened to the truth, I would invite you to be more specific.Josh
David2 says:
June 15, 2008 at 8:11 am

Josh, it sounds to me like your point of objection to Westboro (at least in this respect) is the manner in which Westboro speaks, rather than their methodology. As a Reformed Christian, you believe that God’s wrath is burning against homosexuals (i.e. that he has seething anger towards them), don’t you? If so, is your real gripe that they are less polite in expressing their hatred than you are?
Josh Buice says:
June 15, 2008 at 8:22 am

David 2,My issue is with their understanding of the gospel.My second issue is their understanding of the Great Commission.Josh
Mae says:
June 15, 2008 at 10:49 am

don’t tell them Jesus loves them, until you’re ready to love them, too
david says:
June 15, 2008 at 12:22 pm

David 2: “If so, is your real gripe that they are less polite in expressing their hatred than you are?”It is possible to believe someone is doing wrong without hating them.
Christine says:
June 15, 2008 at 4:33 pm

David 2-I am curious as to how you truly feel about homosexuality.
george hunt says:
June 15, 2008 at 11:02 pm

i find this interesting – i have printed off Josh’s blog entry (original)and also Ben’s and will be reading them at my leisure tomorrowat first glance – there are several things Ben mentions that i AGREE withnotice i said Ben, not his entire church – i don’t know themi can only go on what Ben has said -the comment about churches being pragmatic and results oriented , focusing on baptisms , etc., to the point of selling out the Gospel , HAPPENS alot today in the USA , just look at all the mega churches we havei dont think most of us would recognize or want to be part of a genuine new testament church . . .where the preachers were beaten , jailed, mocked , threatened with death , POOR, relied on fellow christians for support , NOT SALARIES , or selling books , or TV shows, etc.,ALL FOR THE SAKE OF BRINGING GOD GLORY and preaching the Gospel of Christits sickening to see God’s Word treated like a self -help book, to pander to peoples ego’s , and soothe and massage their inner selves , cause MOST christians today don’t know, pretend , or lie to themselves , by claiming that God is their best buddy, and wants us to have our best life now, so we can live ‘a purpose driven life, and be ‘little gods’ to quote kenneth copeland.i see it in church , how the world creeps in; parents coddle their children, and try to be their best friends – at church little to none at all discipleship, no discussion of God’s Word, we meet, we greet, we plan pool parties(lets go see our christian brothers and sisters in their bra and panties and underwear !! fun times) and church league softball games, youth trips, youth concerts, we might visit the elderly when forced to, youth mission trips to the BEACH,where is the dedication to God’s Word, to study, to discipleship ?it doesn’t existmy wife and i shared our testimony to each other of how we came to be born again – and thank God , He pricked our hearts and brought us to repentance , i praise Him for that !!the other thing we have in common is that we were left alone, after that (she is 44yrs , i am 37 ) new babies in a dangerous world , to guess and flounder , NEITHER OF OUR CHURCHES (hers baptist, mine methodist and then SBC baptist) DISCIPLED US , never NOT ONCEhowever, there was PLENTY of youth events that revolved around us going places and ‘keeping us in church’, whatever that means .but real study ? real learning ? memorization ? verse challenges, mentoring ? NEVERso here is the challenge to ALL US CHRISTIANS , when we are tired of PLAYING CHURCH and are ready to allow God’s Word to crush us , we will change the things i mentioneduntil then its just status quo – see and been seen , a local social club , that in America we call churchGod loves HIS children , and expects us to OBEYJoshua 7:23-26 is pretty plain about the consequencesi said i would never come back on here , to ARGUE and i have not , argued , i am just stating the truth , what you do with it , is up to youand in case you’re little hearts are fluttering over this , by the grace of God , i do what i can for His gloryi spend my breaks at work, with 5 others christian men discussing and studying the Word of God; i try to personally witness – i can’t wax on and on like some of you can but hey i try my best , mostly by taking men through the LAW and showing them they deserve the WRATH OF GOD but that He has provided a Way , Jesus Christ to be redeemed . . . reconciled to Himand then i allow the Holy Spirit to work
Darlene (Mom) says:
June 16, 2008 at 12:15 am

David,After going on several websites and also to youtube I found some interviews with one of the pastors daughters, Shirley, who calls herself the official spokesperson for the church. At the time of the interview which was about a year ago there were 70 members. It’s probably mostly family considering that the pastors has 13 grown children and this daughter said that she has 11 children of her own. The sad thing about it is that almost all of the pastors children are attorneys. Educated people that have been brainwashed their whole lives. So sad.Darlene
Mae says:
June 16, 2008 at 6:44 am

darlene,it isn’t brainwashing when you indoctrinate your children in what YOU believe. it isn’t brainwashing when muslims share their beliefs with their children, or church of God or catholic or southern baptist…using Scripture in the wrong way isn’t necessarily brainwashing–it is being wrong! brainwashing occurs when someone intentionally convinces you of something when thhey know it is untrue. i don’t think westboro baptist knows it is wrong-they know whhat they believe and they live it. what they believe is wrong, but they don’t know they are wrong. their beliefs are very twisted…but i like george agree with some things ben said. when’s the last time you saw a 6 yr old from your church, out taking a stand for his beliefs? if we could only get westboro baptist to be on fire about telling others about the love and forgiveness of Christ instead of hell and damnation all the time, we would have a formidable ally in changing our world. i wish more churches had a fire under them to share their beliefs.
Christine says:
June 16, 2008 at 7:03 am

George-It seems to me that you are not taking personal responsibility for your own discipleship. If you and your wife were not getting what you needed, why did you stay? Why not find somewhere else to attend church that would follow God’s command to disciple new believers?I think that you have the right motivation, but are just taking it too far. What is wrong with having fun at a pool party? What’s wrong with sending teenagers to the beach to share the gospel?One last thing, why do you choose to quote certain pastor’s without using their names?
Johnnie says:
June 16, 2008 at 7:05 am

David S;First of all, I am a bible believer…Living under the law, easier…I don’t think so…Sacrificing of animals is not my idea of being easy, especially when the blood of animals could never wash the sin record away, Only the blood of Jesus Christ could do that….The thief Repented of his deeds unto the Lord, therefore, the Lord showed mercy upon his soul…The last time I read my bible, it is a commandment for God’s people to be “Baptized”, it is a commandment for His people to “Repent” of our sins and then we will receive His free gift of the “Holy Ghost”, which is also a must for salvation…1) We must believe2) We must repent3) We must be baptized in the water, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins..4) Then, we will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost as the spirit gives the utterance…This is bible, why is it so hard for people to believe…Humbly;Johnnie
Johnnie says:
June 16, 2008 at 7:21 am

David;Thank you David, I must not have been paying attention…I also enjoy our conversations…Humbly;Johnnie
Josh Buice says:
June 16, 2008 at 8:31 am

George,I am not sure I agree with everything you said . . . . but I think I understand your heart. I, like you, notice that Ben had some things right . . . but like all false teachers / cults – the main motive of their church is based on hate rather than love, good news, gospel! We are called to preach the gospel to every creature, not a message of hate.When the interview is complete, we will know more about the big issues of the church as a whole.Josh Buice
Mae says:
June 16, 2008 at 9:54 am

josh,no one has to read YOUR interview to learn more about the church. do you think that your line of questioning is going to get to the root of their “issues?” there are literally hundreds of websites and articles that lay out what the church believes, from the pastor’s own words.i have a real problem with you even posting this article–why is it significant that you “witnessed ” to westboro baptist church? you didn’t! you “witnessed” to PEOPLE, people that Jesus loves. there is no reason to ever be proud of yourself for 1. sharing God’s Love or 2. obeying the Holy Spirit’s nudge.You posted this article on the last day of the sbc. i guess you were itching to get it posted, but what else happened at the sbc? who else did you witness to? what kind of decisions or motions did you help to get passed or taken care of?george,i’m so glad that you take people through the Law and then “allow” the Holy Spirit to work. that is really nice of you to get out of His way.johnnie,you are wrong about baptism–the thief on the cross was under the same law as nicodemus, so nicodemus wouldn’t have needed baptism either, however you use his conversation with Jesus to “prove” baptism is required for salvation. i brought this same point to your attn on another thread but you just ignored it.david2,there are a lot of hypocritical statements made on here. seems that a lot of Believers don’t want to listen, only want to talk and convince everyone else that they are right. well, the world is tired of hearing it. wonder what ouuld happen if believers stopped telling people they were wrong and just tried to be their friend. novel idea i guess.
Josh Buice says:
June 16, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Mae,The purpose of my post was to encourage others to engage people (who may be different than us) with the gospel. When we see a small group of people who obviously have missed the big picture of the gospel doing what Westboro does – it should encourage us to share the truth with them. The truth will set them free!I did not post this article to bring attention to myself. I did not post this article to condemn Westboro. I simply posted it in order to encourage us to reach lost people with the true gospel while at the same time requesting us all to pray for Westboro. Yes, other things occurred at the SBC, but my post does not claim to be a diary of events at the 2008 SBC. I may choose to post my thoughts on this year’s Convention, but that has nothing to do with this posting.I do not think that my interview will be the “end all” interview for Westboro. I am simply letting others know that I will be posting it later in the week.I also don’t appreciate you trying to judge my motives . . . . I am not sure you understand them . . . maybe you did not read the article in full.You have a choice to continue reading this blog and involving yourself in the discussions in a “Christlike” manner – or you can choose to go some other place in the world wide web. However, if you choose to continue to involve yourself here – make sure you attempt to discuss and critique in a manner that brings glory to God.In closing – I am glad that Adoniram Judson, Lottie Moon, Annie Armstrong, David Brainard, and Jim Elliot never evangelized the world like Westboro!For His Glory!Josh Buice
Mae says:
June 16, 2008 at 2:12 pm

thank you for once again illustrating my point about authorial intent.my point here was to ask why this event was the most important aspect of your trip to the sbc.the “point” of your post as you just explained it is not how i read it at all. since i missed the point, i guess i’m wrong? or did you not clearly express your point? authorial intent can be a tricky thing.my point was that you and i should witness to people, no matter where they are from or what they believe. would this post have garnered so much attn and discussion if it read “why i witnessed to a man named ben and his son”?i don’t really care about you judging my motives or intentions, and i’m sure the many people you readily call out as heretics and the like would probably feel the same way. “judge not lest ye be judged.” when you put your opinions and thoughts out there, you have to be ready to receive the same scrutiny and criticism.are you saying the way i have addressed you and this issue is not “Christlike” or do you just perceive it that way…just because someone questions you doesn’t mean that person doesn’t like you or is attacking you on a personal level. that is you now judging my motives.you also have a choice–to make this blog where comments have to be approved, or to not allow comments at all. but you choose to allow comments. but if you don’t want my comments in particular, i can understand that. i wouldnt respect a decision like that, but it’s your blog and i’d have to oblige. however, open dialogue includes LISTENING to others, and HEARING their input and opinions. i don’t think you really want my particular input, and if that is indeed the case, just say so.i didn’t say you thought your interview would be the “end all.” you said “When the interview is complete, we will know more about the big issues of the church as a whole.” my point was that we already know those things about westboro–we know their thoughts. so my question is why? all i was doing was asking why…in your opinion, maybe my posts didnt bring Glory to God, but then again you are judging my intent as the author. maybe you read it wrong. or maybe i wrote it wrong. but to judge my relationship with my God is wrong. i could say the same thing about some of your posts–that i don’t think they bring Him Glory, but if you know that they do, then you are glorifying Him.i for the life of me can’t quite reconcile why the hardnosed articles are easy for you to write, but the hardnosed discussion afterward is not easily accepted. doesn’t quite equate with me.i don’t know the intention behind your warning for me, so i won’t judge it, because i’m afraid if i did try to judge it, it would leave a terrible taste in my mouth.
Josh Buice says:
June 16, 2008 at 2:54 pm

Mae,All I will say is that —- my intentions are pure. They are for His glory.Out of thousands of people who have read this article, you are the only one who seems to find trouble with “intent” and other authorial issues.I am perfectly comfortable with critique, but unnecessary critique for the purpose of debate is not welcomed. This is a blog site not a debate site. I speak this with love.Josh Buice
Christine says:
June 16, 2008 at 3:49 pm

I’m really confused, Josh. I truly thought that this was about healthy debate. It seems to me that you and Mae have come to this crossroads before. Why?If this is not about debate, what is it about? What is the purpose of your articles?but in your hearts consecrate Christ as Lord, being always ready to make your defence to any one who asks from you a reason for the hope which you cherish.I Peter 3:15
Josh Buice says:
June 16, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Christine,You asked, “If this is not about debate, what is it about? What is the purpose of your articles?”My articles are not written to spark debate. Occasionally we may have a more hotly debated subject come along, but the goal is always for the glory of God and the edification of God’s people.When it comes to certain issues, I simply don’t have time to debate over everything. When I approach a stop sign in my car, it is alright with me to just admit that it is red – without arguing about it. So, while I see a need for discussion on specific issues like “does water save or is it through the blood alone?” I do not see a need to argue over whether or not Westboro is right or wrong. It should be very obvious.Josh Buice
Christine says:
June 16, 2008 at 4:33 pm

Josh-Are you having a bad day?:) You seem a little testy today. I didn’t mean to irritate you, I was just wondering. Thanks for answering!
Josh Buice says:
June 16, 2008 at 4:38 pm

Christine,My day has been fine . . . I am simply trying to avoid being pulled into a debate about endless ideas related to this issue when I see that it is very clear. We could argue “intent” and other issues all day, but I simply want my desire and intent to be known before those who have questioned – they are pure.I do welcome the critique, and it does a man good to figure out what his intentions are, but in the end – I desire to bring glory to God and clarity to the subject in this article and the interview that will be released later in the week.Josh Buice
Johnnie says:
June 16, 2008 at 6:27 pm

Mae;So what your saying is Jesus Christ and His word is a lie, that He really didn’t mean it, that it means something totally different?I think that you just don’t understand what Jesus Christ is saying, the word of God “says what it means and means what it says”…Let me ask you Mae, when is the blood applied?There shouldn’t be no controversy here….Without the blood, you have nothing…Humbly;Johnnie
Mae says:
June 16, 2008 at 9:36 pm

“There shouldn’t be no controversy here….”i couldn’t have said it better, johnnie
David S says:
June 16, 2008 at 9:39 pm

Darlene,That breaks my heart. On the one hand I am glad they are not thousands… but even a handful of misled children is heartwrenching. Thanks for the info. I’m going to commit myself personally to praying for these children that God will use His Holy Spirit to bring these children to the true knowledge of him.David
Johnnie says:
June 16, 2008 at 9:42 pm

Mae;You did not answer the question….When is the blood applied?
Mae says:
June 16, 2008 at 10:15 pm

johnnie,the second you ask Jesus to become your Savior.you have not answered my question about nicodemus.
george hunt says:
June 17, 2008 at 12:34 am

wow -i call us christians on the carpet for continuing the status quo , of AMERICAN CHRISTIANITY – which i stated aboveand two people respond , Bro. Josh and ChristineMae agreed with me – to an extentBrother Josh – i appreciate your comments; the Holy Spirit nudges me too from time to time -i pray i listenchristine -how can i disciple myself , Christine when i was 12 years old when i was born again ?!!!do i need to take responsibility , YES and by God’s grace , He has allowed me to learn but its been 95% on my own ,i thank God for being able to FINALLY have a church to attend locally (brother Josh’s) that preaches God’s Word -LISTEN TO ME -i long for a church that is God focused –i long to be mentored, even now , as a father of three and 37 years old -and where the people desire to know about God and SHOW it by talking about God and His ways, and desiring to study , beyond sunday morningsinstead of playing church league softball, (our county has mens , womens and i think youth league church softball, basketball, etc.,)hey i have an idea ?!!!! lets get together and study on monday nights , etc., WHAT SAY YOU brothers ? oops i forgot thats when we play church league softball, sorry i can’t study the Bible with you , i am too busy hitting home runs .get some back bone fellow christiansbut CHRISTIANS TODAY IN AMERICA ARE TOO BUSY WITH LEISURE ACTIVITIES, SPORTS, WORK, and whatever else , so God gets put out of their minds as soon as they leave the church houseregarding studyi have a better christian library at HOME than my local county library, and probably most churches (not bragging just TAKING RESPONSIBILITY)i read spurgeon, edwards, ji packer, owens, vos, warfield, macarthur, piper, pink, luther, calvin, sproul, augustine, church history, the westminster confession of faith, and mostly try to stay focused on God’s Word first , right now our work group of christian brothers is in the book of Jobi am trying to learn biblical Greek too , on my ownso yes, now that its painfully obvious that its ENTIRELY up to me , to learn what i will of God , i do my best to accomplish thatfor God’s Glory -you asked what’s wrong with ‘having fun at pool parties ‘? how about lack of modest dress ?beach mission trips ? see abovewhy do we have to entertain todays youth ? why do they need their own church ? whatever happened to the youth being catechised, taught God’s Word, studying, and serving ?careful you may actually stumble on the answer , folks .. . . they learn by example, right ? are the grown ups doing any of that ? NOmy issue is that the study, discipleship , etc., IS NOT BEING DONE FIRSTits all about play first , with a few prayer times and jam sessions thrown in for good measurethere is no effort put into God’s Wordregarding the quoting preachers , i don’t even know what you’re talking about ? give me an instance , and i will try to answeri qouted brother Josh , as i attend his church , is that what you are talking about ?this is excruciating -WAKE UP brothers and sistersquestion why you do what you do as a christianis it tradition ? is it biblical ?does it bring God glory?YOU HAVE A SOCIAL CLUB NOT A CHURCH IF YOU CANNOT GET THE SAME LEVEL OF INVOLVEMENT FOR A ‘FUN ‘ TRIP (BEACH, POOL , PIZZA, CONCERT, RETREAT, ETC,) THAT YOU WOULD FOR A WORKING EVENT LIKE EVANGELISM, WITNESSING, VISITING THE ELDERLY / SHUT-INS , SPECIAL STUDY NIGHT, etc.,try to justify it all you want – its da truth
David S says:
June 17, 2008 at 1:35 am

Wow, George, those are some serious charges against the Bride of Christ. What church do you belong to where you are trying to right these wrongs?
Mae says:
June 17, 2008 at 6:41 am

george,while your post sounds cynical, i agree with a lot of what you said, especially when it comes to youth. why does it seem that churches are so focused on giving the youth something fun to do? i’m not saying we should have no fun, but discipleship and training should be the focus.i just read a good quote “The big agenda item is God and His glory, not me and my comfort.”
Josh Buice says:
June 17, 2008 at 8:59 am

George,I appreciate your passion and I agree with some of what you said . . . especially what you had to say about the social club vs. Church comparison. We are living in a spiritual anemic day . . . and it is very sad. I pray that God will raise up a generation of people at CBC who will be the exception.Josh Buice
Johnnie says:
June 17, 2008 at 10:51 am

Mae;1) God accepts us, God calls us, not the other way around…2) The blood is applied when you are baptized in His name, Jesus Christ….We are then buried with Him…Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:Baptism doth also now save us…baptism is needed for eternal salvation, just as it is said in John 3:3-53) The thief on the Cross & Nicodemus…Jesus did not have the time to preach the gospel to the thief…The one thief did not repent of his deeds, therefore he was not saved…The other thief did repent of his deeds and the Lord told him; “Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”.Jesus has the power to giveth and to taketh away…Nicodemus; Jesus was preaching the message of salvation unto Nicodemus that he did not have time to do with the thief…The gospel; the death, burial, and resurrection, could not take place until Jesus was glorified, therefore, Nicodemus nor anyone else could be born again until the death of Jesus Christ, His burial and His resurrection…Humbly;Johnnie
Christine says:
June 17, 2008 at 6:30 pm

George-I totally agree with your most recent post. I wasn’t trying to say that I disagree with you. Modest dress is a serious issue in our churches and one that can turn someone off in an instant. I also didn’t mean that you shouldn’t expect your church to disciple you. You absolutely, 100%, unequivocally should. However, if your church isn’t discipling you, you have 2 choices. Do your own research and teach yourself or go somewhere else!I agree with you that youth groups are far too separate from the main body of the church. Your church has a separate building for the youth!(Or it did last time I checked.) Have you started any classes or study groups at your church? I’m sure the Rev. Josh wouldn’t mind. Are you merely complaining about a lack of focus and discipleship or are you putting feet to the desires that God has obviously placed in your heart?
Dana says:
June 17, 2008 at 6:53 pm

Josh & George, Are you saying that our church has too many social activities and not enough bible study? I believe that we have a good balance of both. We are even told in the bible to fellowship with like believers. Fellowshipping with other Christians is a vital part of a church. You cannot throw the baby out with the bath water and say only bible study and the word at this church and not fellowship. The youth need a place they can call their own and feel comfortable in. They need a place they can express themselves. Teenagers are very ambitious and sometimes very shy. They have a leader that understands this, and leads where God wants them to go and teaches them what they need to know about His word. Mission trips a vital part of our youth group. They go out and tell others about God. Not just run on the beach in their skimpy bathing suits. Our youth pastor would not let them do that any way. Josh, you should know about the youth and how important it is for them to have a good program. You just took a week long mission trip with them to Florida.George, Is this another church that is not ministering to your needs? Then why do you go here? If we are ministering, then you need to get involved and lead some bible studies. You cannot complain if you are not trying to do something about it. God wants all His children to be happy and to get along in His house.Josh, Do we not now have a generation of people that are exploring and following God’s word?
Josh Buice says:
June 17, 2008 at 7:08 pm

Dana,I believe that CBC is headed in the right direction and we have a great mix of both fellowship and study. We cannot have all Bible and no fellowship . . . that is not healthy, and that is not what I was saying. I was simply making a blanket statement about the condition of the Church as a whole – across America.We do have a good group at CBC who are committed to the Word of God – and that is why I am excited to pastor the church. However, that is not the case in most churches. That is why I am praying about the vision that God has given (and continues to give) me for our church.Regarding the summer trips and children’s / youth activities – we are doing many good things and I am very pleased. The Word of God is being taught and good solid Christian relationships are being formed. That is healthy!As for my position on going swimming, to the beach, game night at the church on Friday night, or to a church league softball game – I support it so long as it honors God. Modest dress is a problem in our society, church, and in the work place. Therefore, we should not refrain from all of these things simply because of some problems that arise due to poor decisions from some people. We should simply set high standards and make sure they are followed – and then have good solid Christian fun together as a Church body.So . . . there is my position.What does this have to do with Westboro Baptist Church?Josh Buice
Dana says:
June 17, 2008 at 7:37 pm

Josh, It doesn’t have anything to do with them. I was just commenting on what you & George said. I don’t want to be problematic just observant of what can happen to God’s church. I am all for honoring God in everything I do.As for Westboro, I have e-mailed them my opinion,several months ago, on how wrong I think they are. But got no response. How can you say you are God’s people and not love others? God does not want us to have a heart of stone when we tell others about Him. We must be compassionate and remember that God loves them as much as He loves me. God loves us all and wants us to be with Him when we leave this world for His kingdom.I totally agree with everything you did in Indianapolis, Josh. It takes alot of courage to stand up to people like that. And what a great example to other people there, we must spread the word of God to everyone. That is what He has commanded us to do. I only hope I can stand up to others, if I have to someday and be that brave. God was on your side that day.
Mae says:
June 17, 2008 at 11:23 pm

it doesn’t take courage to follow the nudge of the Holy Spirit. it is about obedience! we are not heroes, dana, for doing what we’re told to do.josh wasn’t standing up to people, he was sharing the gospel. there is a BIG difference.
Mae says:
June 17, 2008 at 11:32 pm

by the way, God isn’t on anyone’s “side” on any day… God is my GUIDE every day.i don’t know what you meant by that.
Bill F. says:
June 18, 2008 at 6:31 am

I wonder how the people at Westboro Baptist church would re-act if every Sunday a group of people stood outside their church with signs and started shouting the “true gospel”. If done out of love and a true concern for their salvation, I wonder if God would move? Is there a way this could be done without looking like you were doing it out of spite? These are some of the questions that ran through my head as I read this post the first time. But I believe Bro. Josh did the right thing and did it the right way. Our job is not to reap the harvest, but to plant the seed and I believe that was done. May God move on these people and grant them repentance for His Glory.p.s. If you would like to futher discuss what “church” should be, I’ve started a thread on my blog. Just click on my name.
Darlene (Mom) says:
June 18, 2008 at 8:53 am

Mae,Why are you so negative? You seem to attack everyone that agrees with Josh, even his motives. When was the last time that you walked up to ANGRY, HATEDRIVEN protestors and shared the TRUE GOSPEL with them? It did take a lot of COURAGE and BACKBONE to do what he did but as he has already explained to you, he didn’t do it to be a HERO, he was doing it for the GLORY OF GOD. Stop attacking him for that and being so judgemental.Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong. No matter what it’s our duty as Christians to share the gospel with the lost. Can you not agree that these people are clearly being misled by Hate? We need to pray for these people as we should be praying for all the lost and do our part to win souls for HIS GLORY. No argument about that!Darlene
Mae says:
June 18, 2008 at 9:29 am

josh’s mom,i am sorry that you have taken my remarks as negative. there goes that authorial intent getting out of control again.please tell me exactly when/how i attacked someone. i could easily throw out the accusation that i am “attacked” for disagreeing with josh, but in discussions such as this one, i try to keep my feelings out of it.”We need to pray for these people as we should be praying for all the lost and do our part to win souls for HIS GLORY. No argument about that!” that is the exact point i am making–witnessing to ben and his son is JUST like witnessing to any other random stranger. maybe i’m wrong, but i don’t think it takes courage and backbone to obey the nudge from the Holy Spirit. obedience is overcoming fear because you know the One who is leading you would never steer you wrong.my intention was never to take away from the fact that josh shared with these people. he did, and it is a great thing anytime lies are confronted with truth. my very first post here addresses the hate this church spews. my questions are very simple.1. why did josh post this? i simply was unclear of his motivation in posting this, as i didn’t really see the reason…2. does josh and do we get as passionate about confronting other sinners and lost people, and would he have written this blog if the sensationalism of westboro baptist church wasn’t involved?3. josh, would you invite these people into your church?4. is your problem with their message or their approach?5. westboro baptist church hates a lot of people, but none as vehemently as homosexuals. would you then invite the people that westboro hates into your church?the questions i have posed were not done so in a negative manner, but perception is reality so i am sorry if it came across that way. i have faced negativity on this board, but i shrug it off because i am here to share and learn, even from people i don’t agree with in the least.if anything, josh was beyond negative in “correcting” or chastising me the way he did on june 16. he addressed me as if i was a child, or someone who was out of line. i have never read where he corrected anyone in that manner…is it truly because i wasn’t speaking in a “Christlike” manner? i could have taken deep offense to that, darlene, because josh was judging me, my heart, who i am. but a man’s opinion is not what shapes what i do and say-my God does that, thankfully.words are tricky, written words even more so, and to take offense at the way you READ someone’s words is dangerous.what i believe is deep and strong. i read the same Bible that you and josh read, and the same Bible that westboro reads. i have had run ins with this church and you know what? my pastor invited them into our church. he stopped the service to welcome them, asked them to stand, and we gave them a round of applause. also, a group of GLBTs came to our church, with the motivation to protest–same thing–my pastor invited them in, recognized them, and we welcomed them. no one in our church went and publicized the fact that we did the thing Jesus would have done.
Mae says:
June 18, 2008 at 9:31 am

darlene”No matter what it’s our duty as Christians to share the gospel with the lost.”EXACTLY
Josh Buice says:
June 18, 2008 at 10:21 am

Mae,You continue to wonder why I wrote this article and why I witnessed to Westboro:The article says:

Why did I witness to Westboro? Was it to stir up a crowd in order to be seen of men? Was it to cause trouble? Was it to debate and argue with confused people? Was it to be interviewed by the newspaper? No! The following reasons sum up why I witnessed to Westboro:1. I felt the unmistakable nudge of the Spirit of God telling to witness to these people.2. I believe that God can save these people just as he saved me several years ago.3. I saw the little boy holding the sign next to the street corner, so I felt a bit of urgency to tell him the truth.4. These people are part of the world that we are called to evangelize (Matthew 28:18-20), and it would have been ultra hypocritical to sit in a Convention Center and talk about the Great Commission without fulfilling it less than 400 yards away.5. We as Christians are to spread the “Good News” which is the Gospel – not a message of hate void of any Gospel. Since these people were not doing that, I felt responsible to share the truth on the street corner.May God bless His Word! Although none of these people stopped and repented of their sin, they did hear the true Gospel. The gospel saves! I pray that Westboro ‘Baptist’ will repent and turn to Christ Jesus for salvation. May God turn them into a group who preaches the true Gospel rather than a message of hate and confusion.For the glory of God!

Josh Buice
Josh Buice says:
June 18, 2008 at 10:22 am

Mae,I would not welcome Westboro or homosexuals or a sweet old woman of 85 years old into my church as members unless they believed the true gospel and trusted Jesus alone for salvation. However, I would welcome anyone to come and hear the gospel.My problem is with both their message and their approach. They do not understand the true gospel (at least the persons I spoke with do not). They also do not understand the Great Commission.Josh Buice
Darlene (Mom) says:
June 18, 2008 at 11:26 am

Mae,I think Josh has answered your questions, once again, so I don’t have to speak for him.You said that your pastor invited them into your church to hear the gospel, which is great. But whywould your church applaud these people? Why would they be recognized in that manner?Darlene
Mae says:
June 18, 2008 at 12:32 pm

we were showing them that they were welcome! we were so glad they came inside instead of standing on the outside! they wouldn’t have been allowed to join-no one would be allowed to join without receiving Christ, repenting, and showing a change in themselves. we were applauding to let them know we arent their enemies–although they had viciously been after our church and pastor. but we welcomed them just like we would have any other stranger on our doorstep. Jesus ate with sinners, i don’t think it’s wrong that we clapped for them.
Christine says:
June 18, 2008 at 2:04 pm

Mae-Bravo!!!! For you and for your church! I had tears in my eyes when I read your account of what happened in your church. From my limited experience with a few homosexuals, it is heart breaking that many of them speak of their intense loneliness. I understand that they choose the lifestyle that they live, but so do I! What an amazing act of love and witness of Christ and His love for us all- even homosexuals. I think if we yearned for all people, not just homosexuals, to be saved the way that God yearns for people to believe in Him, our entire approach would be different. Are homosexuals sinners? Absolutely. Are gossipers sinners? A resounding yes! Are their sins the same in God’s eyes? Of course. We must be very careful not to elevate ourselves above homosexuals when our sins are just as wrong. In fact, in my own life, gossiping tongues(from church members no less) have been far more damaging to me and to others than any homosexuals have ever thought about being.
Christine says:
June 18, 2008 at 2:06 pm

BTW, to all of the pastors who post on this blog-Have any of you encountered homosexuals in your church. If so, how did you deal with it? If not, what do you think is the proper response to these individuals?
Mae says:
June 18, 2008 at 2:18 pm

yes, they are very lonely indeed–and why? they don’t know about the Friend that is closer than a brother. mostly, they’ve been rejected by their families and kicked out of churches, while being ostracized by the whole of society. how shameful that we as Believers turn our nose up in fear or hatred toward someone who is in sin. last time i checked, we all were.
David S says:
June 18, 2008 at 4:44 pm

Christine: “Are their sins the same in God’s eyes? Of course.”That’s really interesting. I’ve been thinking a lot about that lately.I would be interested in the Scripture that says that. I hear that a lot in Christian circles, but not the Bible. All sin has the same result: Judgment, but some sin is worse than others (thus the need for judgment).I always think of this verse in Corinthians: “Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.” 1 Cor. 6:18-20Notice Paul compares one kind of sin against another and comes to the conclusion that all sin is not the same.The idea that all sin is the same also challenges my understanding of hell being about real sin and real punishment.I’m thinking outloud here. Are all sins exactly the same? Does God judge a Hitler the same as a Grandma who never accepted him? If so, why the need to have any judgment at all?All sin leads to eternal separation. Part of that separation is the bearing out of the weight of sin. That is: Hell is not only a place, it is actual punishment.What do you think?
Christine says:
June 18, 2008 at 9:58 pm

David S-”Does God judge a Hitler the same as a Grandma who never accepted him?”Don’t they both end up in hell? God doesn’t say, well Grandma was sweet and didn’t kill anybody, so let her on in to heaven. But Hitler on the other hand is a monster, so to hell with him. That’s probably one of the most absurd arguments I’ve ever heard.Now, something I do agree with you about is that some sin has greater earthly consequences than others. Sexual sins have huge emotional, spiritual, not to mention physical consequences. What I intended to say in my last post, and I am not sure that I was clear enough, is that different sins have different consequences, hence the verse you so eloquently quoted, but sin is still sin. I think if we as Christians were as heard on gossipers, liars, and rebellious people as we are on homosexuals, we might actually clean up the church.
Christine says:
June 18, 2008 at 10:03 pm

Just a little support for my previous argument….James 2:1010- For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.1 John 3:4-54 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.1 Corinthians 6:9-10″Unrighteous,” immoral, idolaters, adulterers, sexual perverts, thieves, greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers “will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
David S says:
June 19, 2008 at 12:10 am

That’s interesting, Christine. I do agree all unbelievers end up in hell. Do they suffer the same? Or is there jdugment specific to sins they committed?
Christine says:
June 19, 2008 at 8:33 am

I believe there are different degrees in hell.”That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.” (Lk 12:47-48)”Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” (Mt 11:21-24)However, a person’s sin is not the reason that they are in hell. Their unbelief is the reason they are in hell. Hitler and grandma need the same Jesus to forgive them. Does it really matter? Hell is still hell. Hell is hell because God is not there.
Johnnie says:
June 19, 2008 at 10:00 am

Homosexuals;All walks of life must be allowed to come into God’s house…In God’s house they have an opportunity to repent of their sins, they have an opportunity to learn who God is and what God expects out of His children…They have an opportunity to be baptized and have their sins washed away…They have an opportunity to be filled with God’s spirit, the Holy Ghost…With that said, they must refrain from their perverted ways while in God’s house or I will personally kick them out of the house of God…Any sinner must have the desire to want to change…We as Christians can witness to them and teach them the gospel, just as we were taught…In God’s church they will hear that their lifestyle is an abomination unto the Lord God Almighty…Homosexuals will know that God is a loving God, a merciful God, a forgiving God, as well as a just God…We as humans must let go of worldly things and grasp on to Godly things…Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life…There is know other way unto the Father except through the blood of the Lamb…Humbly;Johnnie
Mae says:
June 19, 2008 at 10:46 am

johnnie,who hired you to be the church security guard? how much do they pay you for running interference in the sanctuary? i didn’t know we needed bouncers at church! good grief a mighty! that is about hillarious-that you take it upon yourself to “personally” kick anyone out of church!!!i guess you’d personally kick others out of church too, right?what about fat gluttons?what about lying thieves?what about murderer?what about cigarette addicts?what about gossipers?what about child abusers?what about wife abusers?what about ANYONE who doesnt show the fruits of the spirit?i think Believers who act like the devil are much more deserving to be kicked out of church by YOU than a non-Believer who acts like, well, a non-Believer. the actions of Believers can be much more damaging to the cause of Christ. a homosexual lifestyle is not nearly the only thing that is an abomination to the Lord!i wonder who will personally kick you out when you are acting unGodly? you have some kind of nerve! wow!!!!!
Mae says:
June 19, 2008 at 11:01 am

why oh why are we surprised and offended when non-Christians act like the devil? why oh why are we not appalled and disgusted when Christians act like the devil? take the log out of your own eye.
Christine says:
June 19, 2008 at 1:30 pm

Johnnie-Are you an ordained minister? On whose authority have you decided to “personally” kick people out of your church?
Mae says:
June 19, 2008 at 2:28 pm

all bloviating aside, i, like christine would appreciate hearing a PASTOR’S perspective on that issue.
David S says:
June 19, 2008 at 3:47 pm

Christine,I agree with all of what you said concerning hell. Good references.Johnnie, Mae, Christine,I have asked a man to stop attending the church until his behavior changed. He was welcome, until he decided to dress in women’s clothing and attend choir. I had a discussion with him and explained he was welcome to come hear the Gospel, but he had to dress in a manner appropriate for a man. (We dress casual for church. It wasn’t about dress)He said to me, “When I was born again, Jesus made me a woman.”I said, “I want you to hear me. You are taking the foundation of Christian message, Regeneration, and twisting it to accomidate something sinful. We can’t allow that in the church.”He then attended a home group and was approached by the deacons and myself. He was asked not to return to worship until he came to Celebrate Recovery and took action on his behavior.I found this to be a very difficult sitation. I want to show love and mercy to all people. I also felt we had to honor the Lord. We continue to build a relationship with this man.But honestly, it’s not as easy as just “kicking them out of the church.” If you are going to ask people to leave, you must make clear how they can attend again. Under what conditions? This should be done by a body within the church (deacons, elders, pastors) not by any one person.The interest of the church is never to slam judgment in someones face, but only to help them see error that they might repent. Also, we cannot condone openly sinful behavior lest others think it acceptable.In general, anyone is welcome in church; unless their behavior is inappropriate. Attending is not the same as joining the Body.
Christine says:
June 19, 2008 at 3:51 pm

David S-I am so glad to read your previous post! Your church handled things appropriately and, it seems, lovingly. I appreciate the fact that you let him know that he was still welcome and under what conditions. I also appreciate the fact that you explained to him how he could be restored. Very Biblical!Johnnie-Don’t you think the way David S handled this particular situation was much better than you being self-appointed bouncer?
Mae says:
June 19, 2008 at 4:03 pm

thank you, david s.that really encouraged me.
Josh Buice says:
June 19, 2008 at 4:48 pm

To whom it may concern:Regarding discipline – it is necessary to follow the biblical model from Matthew 18:15-20. From a pastor’s perspective – this is never easy. On the three times that I have been involved – the goal has always been (1) repentance of sin and (2) restoration between the individual and God and the individual and the church.If you follow the Scriptures – it removes the “decision” and “emotion” factor from the whole situation. The Word of God must be followed.Therefore, it is fine for lost people to attend church to hear the Word of God – I don’t know any preacher who would argue differently. However, the membership of the church is not open to everyone. Only saved people make up the membership of the church. That is what the definition of the Greek term “church” means – “a called out assembly.”I hope this helps.Josh Buice
Mae says:
June 19, 2008 at 6:00 pm

it does help, thank you josh.i am wondering which sins you will discipline. is it just the “Big” ones like homosexuality? what about a teenaged girl who gets pregnant or a boy who gets a girl pregnant? what about a gossiper or a liar? every church has a problem here or there, so which ones do you “discipline”? all of them? that would keep you busy.i do not like it when “obvious” sin is shunned much more readily than the sin that we all commit daily that no one else knows about. i think homosexual sin gets our emotions going and it becomes “easy” to get upset and disgusted by it–i was recently in a church service as a visitor and the church was so quiet while the pastor delivered a tremendous message on keeping mind and body pure. there wasn’t an amen or even a “mm-hmm” until he mentioned something about homosexual sin. then the place erupted with amens and hallelujahs galore. i was very surprised at how willing many of them were to “amen” that comment, but not a word when he spoke about living a healthy lifestyle, keeping pure thoughts, etc. not a word, and that was no isolated incident-most churches i dare say might have the same response.i am wondering, josh, as a young pastor…three times to be involved in church discipline sounds like a lot to me. my pastor, who has been in ministry for nearly 30 years, has only been involved with church discipline three times. is this something you anticipate over the lifetime of your ministry? the only time it ever happened in a church that i was attending at the time, it was handled by church leadership, and then the pastor caringly but leadingly directed us as his flock to stay quiet about it. i thought it was a very caring and much needed admonition.
george hunt says:
June 19, 2008 at 10:12 pm

i think Brother Josh , is attending a youth event , for the rest of the week , and due to location (rural) may not have internet access ?only mention that so we don’t think he is ‘ignoring’ us !!if he has the opportunity to answer i am sure he will
george hunt says:
June 19, 2008 at 10:16 pm

we seem to be repeating the SAME arguments here over and overi wonder , are we , as brothers and sisters in Christ ,able to discuss His Word, without , argument ?seriously , can we accomplish this herculean task ?or, will we sell out to the adage, ‘we just agree to disagree ‘ ?!!who is with me , to start fresh and IN LOVE , discuss our Lord and Saviour ?
Christine says:
June 20, 2008 at 6:13 am

George-Your pastor Josh is the only one on this blog who has ever said that we would have to agree to disagree. Healthy argument is not wrong. In fact, isn’t that what apologetics is? The Bible tells us to always be ready to give a defense for our faith. Are you uncomfortable with following a clear Biblical command?I feel that almost everyone on this blog speaks what they see as the truth in love. Though we may disagree on some points, most of us seem to have the right motivation. I am surprised that you would want us to water down the tone of our conversation for the simple fact of appearing more loving. Really surprising, I must say.
Dr. Ted Baehr says:
June 20, 2008 at 8:48 pm

I am proud to announce, that as of Independence Day, July 4th 2008, the Westboro Baptist Church will be allied with a staunch new partner in the fight against the corruption of our Family Culture in America.The financial and media-wise power of the Christian Film and Television Commission (which I founded in 1988) and the notably Internet presence of http://www.movieguide.org, in addition to the KAIROS Marketing Group, are proud to come “on board” with the Reverend Dr. Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church.Together, our unified powers will work in tune with God’s Commandments to his Faithful on Earth, and we will redeem a culture bereft of guidance, Media Wisdom, and good old-fashioned Family-Friendly Morals.Look for updates on http://www.movieguide.org, and feel free to donate money towards this new and everlasting alliance of God’s Will and God’s Glory!Yours in Christ,Dr. Ted Baehr
David S says:
June 20, 2008 at 9:20 pm

Sir,How can you celebrate Independence day with a group that protest dead Marines funerals?By joining with them, you give legitimacy to their cause. How can you call for family values, while joining with a group that brings great harm to the families of those who defend this nation?I hope you will reconsider your alliance. When you come “on board” with such a group, you add your voice to the deepest hate projected against our men and women in uniform. It saddens me that this is done in the name of Jesus.David
mae says:
June 20, 2008 at 9:42 pm

amen, david s.i will RUN far from this church and anyone alligned with it. the website movieguide.com seems like a good resource, and in no need of “help” from the rev phelps.
mae says:
June 20, 2008 at 9:44 pm

george,passionate discussion is not argument.
george hunt says:
June 20, 2008 at 10:01 pm

guess i got my answeri can see why the jewish tradition was for women to keep silent and learn at HOME
mae says:
June 20, 2008 at 10:10 pm

george,are you kidding me? you MUST be joking…you would rather not have women weigh in? seriously? Jesus didn’t feel that way, and you know it. amazing.
mae says:
June 20, 2008 at 10:20 pm

george,while you are sharing the law with your coworkers, do you exclude women? i’m sure you do.please give me your opinion on the following people from the Bible:RuthDeborahEstherLydiaLeahRachelMaryMarthaMary MagdeleneMary, Mother of JesusTamarGomerRebeccaSarahHagarMiriamlottie moon, annie armstrong, elisabeth elliott and COUNTLESS other women have changed the world.
mae says:
June 20, 2008 at 10:23 pm

george,i know i’m a woman and all, and it’s probably totally out of place for me to speak for you directly, but i’d love to sugest a book called “why not women” by cunningham/hamilton. since you have such a huge library, you might already have it. you should read it. but, maybe i’ll have my husband come on and suggest it..you might listen if the post was written by “john.”
Bill F. says:
June 20, 2008 at 10:32 pm

GeorgeYou never cease to amaze!Dr. BeahrI have to echo David S. on this one.
Darlene (Mom) says:
June 20, 2008 at 11:53 pm

Ted,On your Board of Reference, are these your supporters, donators, etc.? If so how many of these 159 listed support your decision?Darlene
Darlene (Mom) says:
June 20, 2008 at 11:56 pm

David S.,I agree wholeheartedly. Let’s pray that God will open their eyes and there hearts to the true gospel.Darlene
David S says:
June 21, 2008 at 1:21 am

alas, Mae, we agree. I knew the day would come.
David S says:
June 21, 2008 at 1:23 am

Darlene,But I don’t want to pray for them. I want to be mad at them. . . They have literally cast themselves as our enemies. Jesus did say to pray for them, so I’ll do it. Thank you for the reminder. I really will do this.
Johnnie says:
June 21, 2008 at 7:09 am

Christine, Mae;The word of God gave me the authority…Example: Homosexuality, is it or is it not an abomination unto the Lord?Is not sin, sin?Does God love or hate all workers of iniquity?Christine, Mae;I see by reading your previous comments that neither one of you like authority over your lives…And before you accuse me, “I am not suggesting that I am an authority over either one of you,” I am simply saying that you do not like someone telling you what you need to do in order to insure your salvation,(meaning, your own Pastor or your husbands)…Don’t charge me for speaking with authority, did not Jesus speak with authority, did not the Apostles speak with authority?The last time I checked the rapture hasn’t happened yet, therefore I must still be in obedience unto His word…What I say isn’t meant to hurt or to make a person mad, I am fulfilling God’s commandment by preaching the gospel and I realize that not all people will adhere to sound doctrine…I also do not claim to be anybody, I am human, I bleed like everyone else, I fall, I stumble like everyone else…I also do not claim to know all things about God, that would be ludicrous….This is also why God put man in authority of the church and not a women…”Now remember, love thy neighbor as thy love thyself..” It is the word of God, not mine…Mae;When a person claims to be filled with God’s spirit,(the Holy Ghost), and continues to lead a sinful life, then he is not glorifying God…And when I say a sinful lifestyle, I mean a continuing sin, “not sin that a person falls into and then repents of, there is a difference in sin and being a sinner…After a person is saved and they continue living a lifestyle of,Smoking, drinking, drugging, then they are defiling the temple of God….Once a person is saved and filled with the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost will lead him away from sin, not towards sin…You cannot serve two masters, you either serve God, or you serve mammon…That is why we are to repent daily because we are not above sinning, that is why Paul said that he dies daily, he knew that he also was not above sinning…Humbly;Johnnie
mae says:
June 21, 2008 at 7:56 am

johnnie,what comment have i made that leads you to think i have problems with authority?actually, i think you have a problem with authority-you have a rebellious spirit, and you use God’s Word to justify it. you have taken God’s Word and use it as a license to judge others at all times…you are a self-appointed sin policeman, and you don’t care who you offend or who you hurt, and you don’t realize that in the process, you are turning others away from Christ’s love.while your intentions are good, and your zeal is respectable, your approach seems very rude, immature, and anything but humble.because i am here, i ask tough questions, i say what i believe and i defend my thoughts, and because i sign a female name, i am rebellious. is that how it is? in Christ there is no male or female, remember that.david s,yay, we do agree, very much so. i think i agree with you on quite a few things actually! wonders never cease.
Christine says:
June 21, 2008 at 8:00 am

I am so appalled and disgusted at the blatant show of male chauvinism on this blog. George and Johnnie, I find it so interesting that because a woman dares to disagree with you on something you decide that I should stay at home and learn and that I must not like authority over me. I’ll have you know that over the last couple of years I have sought God’s will in my life in a number of areas, most importantly learning to submit myself to my husband’s authority.I cannot believe that this is what this “argument” has come down to. Are you just tired of reading what I have to say? Are you tired of a mere woman challenging your thinking and asking you to think in a different way?George-You have 3 children so I am assuming that you are married. How would you feel if someone told you wife to shut her mouth and stay home when all she was trying to do was hone her own thoughts on theology, etc.Johnnie-I’m not sure if you’re married, so how would you feel if it was your mom?I’d tell you that my feelings were truly hurt by your words, but I’m sure that would just be me being an overly emotional female. I’d tell you that Jesus never excluded women from His ministry. Of course, He placed limits on what women can do, but we’ve never been excluded by Jesus, but then I guess I’d just be a rebellious female who has a problem with authority.To say that I am disturbed by this whole situation would be an understatement. However, God tells us to pray for those who are misinformed, and believe you me, there will be so many prayers lifted up in your two names(George and Johnnie) you won’t be able to help feeling the need to change. Now, whether you decide to be under God’s authority and do so is up to you. I’d hate to think that you would be rebellious against God’s authority.Ridiculous to say the least.
mae says:
June 21, 2008 at 8:33 am

christine,i, like you, can’t believe that this conversation ended up here. i had no idea we would be having this talk…i guess i’m just clueless, because this came out of left field for me.george,when you are studying the law at work, why don’t you study the fact that Jesus fulfilled it and we’re not under it anymore. if we were, you’d be forced to cover your head before prayer or walking 8 feet…are you circumcised? if not, you, sir, are not under the Jewish tradition. do you observe Passover and a strict Sabbath? do you offer live sacrifices on a regular basis???thankfully, Jesus freed us from the law that could sometimes be oppressive–why? because His Way is not oppressive. we don’t have to worry about covering our heads in prayer or cutting off a convert’s wing wang…we just come as we are.johnnie,i’d be really interested to hear from your daughters/wife…i am so thankful that spiritual freedom is not something new, and i am so blessed to live in the US of A…where I have the political freedom to share my thoughts and beliefs. i’d be doing many women disservice who fought for women’s rights–they fought hard. and i’d be doing an even bigger disservice to my sisters around the world who can’t share their thoughts and ideas.Jesus never excluded women from discussion. the only limitations i have read in the Bible are regarding women serving in church. this isn’t church, george and johnnie. this is a public msg board where we can feel free to share. funny you didn’t call out the other females–you don’t have a problem with females sharing, you have a problem with females who disagree with you. that is just backwards and ignorant.your attitude here is no different than your attitude in the world, so i’m wondering the last time either of you lead a woman to Christ? when’s the last time you witnessed to a woman?do you both realize that in the Jewish tradition george is so ready to embrace, the lineage and geneology is traced through the woman? do you realize that Jesus’ lineage to david is traced through MARY, RUTH and others??? please do not ignore the value of women, even in the church.christine,my feelings were not hurt, i feel bewildered and disgusted.
David S says:
June 21, 2008 at 9:08 am

george: “i can see why the jewish tradition was for women to keep silent and learn at HOME”I believe Jewish women were pretty outspoken. Want some examples? It was Christian women at Corinth Paul told to go learn at home. Because they were disrupting a worship service. The men set in one group, the women in another. The women would holler out questions in worship, so Paul told them to stop speaking in church but wait until they got home. It was a specific command in a specific situation. And I don’t think it had much to do with jewish women!Are the women on the blog distrubing your worship, George?

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